Thursday, December 29, 2005

Open Bar at RC Sproul Jr's Highlands Ministries

Reposted with permission from L'Enfant Terrible blog, along with select comments

Pastors Camp At The Highlands Study Center

Check it out! A camp for pastors and elders being held at the Highlands Study Center:

Pastors Camp. January 8-11, 2006, the Highlands Study Center will be hosting its second Camp for Pastors. In 2005, we brought ten pastors, at our expense, to several days of conversation on the nature and calling of the Bride of Christ. This time, we've invited five pastors and asked them to bring an elder with them. Our goal was and is to encourage pastors and their sessions to grow churches that will encourage the sheep to live more simple, separate and deliberate lives to the glory of God and the building of His kingdom. We were very pleased with the response to the first camp and are looking forward to the next one.

I wonder if the agenda will look something like this:

    Pastors Camp - Agenda

    1. Effective Shunning Techniques - by the St. Peter Session and Congregation (Reference)

    2. How To Lie and Libel About Mean People - By R.C. Sproul, Jr.

    3. How To Get Around Your Denomination's Pesky Standards - By the St. Peter Session (Reference - see page 14)

    4. What To Say When Your Presbytery Forces You To Apologize But You're Not Really Sorry - By the St. Peter Session (Reference)

    5. How To Save Face When People Keep Leaving Your Church - By R.C. Sproul, Jr.

    6. The Elder's Wife: How She Can Tell The Congregation Things You'd Rather Not - By Laurence Windham

    7. What To Do When Your Parishioners Are No Longer Your Fans - By R.C. Sproul, Jr.

    And the question you're all wanting to know -

    8. What To Do When You Run Out Of Kool-Aid


Perfect, Mr. T! Just beautiful! I salute you, Sir!
Posted by Barn Cat | 12/18/2005 3:55 PM

A picture's worth a thousand shots! (shot glasses that is)
Posted by David | 12/20/2005 9:50 AM

Now we know why he had to be a hero of the faith, rather than a giant.
Posted by MC Bradley | 12/23/2005 2:56 PM

Your forgot to mention the open bar, paid for by the Highlands Study Center.
Posted by RC 2.0 | 12/25/2005 6:27 AM

I love how you guys love to attack others while remaining anonymous. Why not post your real names and take responsibility for your words instead of being "keyboard commandos"?
Mike Patrick
Posted by Mike | 12/29/2005 7:45 AM

David is my real name.
Posted by David | 12/29/2005 8:21 AM

Mike, are you the one that sewed the pillows?
Posted by Bad | 1/03/2006 2:41 PM

If the gang of thugs, er, the Session of St. Peter did nothing wrong, then why did they feel the need to apologize (however poorly) when they were busted?
Posted by Barn Cat | 1/03/2006 3:26 PM

About the pillows...they were a joke, hello??? I didn't sew them but I did see them. I also saw "JIM" take a picture of them. There was ONE set and it was sewn by a member of the church and was NOT sold by the church.

Harry, "Jim", Terrible etal. love to slander by using soundbites, jokes and lies to make others look evil. For example about the grain alcohol, I believe I am the only mixer of the stuff. And JIM your son drank some because he lied and said he had permission. And by the way, "JIM" the final concentration was 6%, the strength of Mike's Hard Lemonade. Maybe you can't do the math to make that happen "JIM" but I can, because as you always said..."You're very clever Mrs. _____, very clever."

Has anyone considered that "JIM" is doing tricks like Mel Gibson in the Patriot and posing as all the other terribles out there so we think there are more? Has anyone considered that "Jim" might have a bee in his bonnet? Bitterness reeks and it permeates all the "Jim" websites.
Posted by get real | 1/03/2006 9:21 PM

Dear Mrs. get real ________,

I won't harass you to identify yourself by first and last name the way that Mike Patrick and Jeff Forester and Matt Clament (did I forget anyone?) are harassing everyone else who doesn't want to identify themself. But it's obvious why you wouldn't want to identify yourself, Mrs. ________. That's OK. I still believe what you say. Sometimes people have good reasons for not wanting to identify themselves.

Take me. We visited your church because we heard about it through some friends that are Saint Peter's members (after what we witnessed it's hard for us to understand why they don't leave). I started reading RC's blog and ordered a few Basement Tapes. We liked what we heard, but what we heard and what we later saw were very different things. We're disappointed that our friends didn't tell us more than they did about Saint Peter's before we went all the way out there. But I'd rather not give out my name and risk hurting their feelings.

Aside from the booze problem, we know that Saint Peter's is a very gossipy church so I'm sure that if I used my name here it would only take you a few phone calls to sort out who our Saint Peter's friends are and ruin our relationship with them. Probably Mike and Matt and Jeff won't think that's a good enough reason and they'll harass me like they're harassing everyone else, but I hope that you understand my concern Mrs. __________. I think it's safe to assume that the Saint Peter's folks who keep pushing hard for real names must be part of that whole Saint Peter's gossip chain.

Their sniveling is just so juvenile and it's only confirming in my own mind what I've already heard and personally seen about RC Sproul Jr. He's doing a terrible job of pastoring his people, and it shows in their character as well as his own.

I don't have a cat in this fight, other than to say that I wish we had known what we know now about Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. We never would have gone out there. We're deeply offended by what we witnessed. The Sunday service was beautiful, but it was the only bright spot of our visit. It was everything else that troubled us. We stayed plenty long enough to know that Saint Peter's was not the church for our family. We came away from your church confused and even a bit shocked.

Please know that we're not abstainers. We do have an occasional glass of wine, so we're not offended by the consumption of alcohol, as long as it's in moderation. We're also not offended by men smoking their cigars and pipes. Our family doesn't smoke, but we do consume alcohol in moderation, and we know what moderation means. RC has a definition of moderation like nothing that we've ever seen, at least nothing that we've ever seen outside a sports bar. For us it was like going back to our wild college days and Spring break keg parties. Those aren't times that we want to relive and we sure don't want our children exposed to it. For us, seeing men pull whiskey flasks out of back pockets and passing them around at a church function is not our idea of moderation. To us it's shocking.

For my part I'm glad that some of these things are getting out on the internet about your church. People need to know what they're getting in to before they come to visit Saint Peter's, or worse yet before they become members. If what they want is a party church then that's they're business. Had we known Saint Peter's was a party church we wouldn't have driven those many hours that we did just to feel like we'd had our time wasted.

I've read some of the things on the internet about liquor being served by Saint Peter's members to minor children. Thank you Mrs. _________ for now correcting everyone, especially Jim, over the fact that "about the grain alcohol, I believe I am the only mixer of the stuff." I'd like to point out though that a church the size of Saint Peter probably only needs one "mixer" of grain alcohol, in the same way that a small bar only needs one bartender. I've heard that your church has grown a bit since we were out there, so you might want to train another "mixer" or two to keep the drink lines short at your church functions.

Thank you Mrs. __________ for also pointing out that you only serve alcoholic beverages to minor children if they say they have permission. We all know that boys would never lie about such things. I don't know if you have children Mrs. __________ but I do. I'm embarrassed to have to admit it, but sometimes my children lie. I know that probably reflects badly on me, but it's important that I'm realistic about what my children are capable of so I can protect them from environments that might corrupt them. I'm afraid that if an adult offered them liquor they might accept it, and I'm afraid that if all they had to do to get it was lie, they might lie to get it. It's just that much more likely that they would lie if they were offered liquor at a "church" function where they saw an adult mixing drinks for children, especially when those other children are saying, "It's OK. My dad gave me permission."

All of this now just confirms why we could never be members of your church. We home school not just because we want our children to have a superior academic experience, we home school to keep our children away from peer-group pressure elements, especially the elements that could corrupt their morals. Unlike children in public schools, ours don't have to be exposed to other children their age partying. But by your own admission the children of Saint Peter's are witnessing other children their age consuming liquor, and all they have to do to get it is lie. That's the kind of morally corrupting peer pressure we don't need and we don't want.

Thanks for also pointing out that the alcohol content of the drinks you serve to children is only 6%. I'm now very relieved. I was starting to have concerns that you might be serving children vodka martinis.

I don't agree with Jim, "You're very clever Mrs. _____, very clever." About the only thing you're being clever about right now is not using your real name.

You've all vented your anger at Jim, and I guess there's some others your angry at for exposing your alcoholic practices, and I can easily understand why you'd be so angry over being exposed. But let's be honest with everyone, Mrs. ________. Is it really Jim who's got the problem with bitterness? What I've read here by you and Mike, Matt and Jeff sure sounds real bitter to me.

I'm not real concerned about whether Jim or anyone else is bitter or not. I'm just glad for what Jim's done, and what the others have done. I wish we had known those things before we went all the way out there to find it out for ourselves. If Jim is bitter I pray that the Lord ministers to his bitterness and helps him to forgive you. But Jim isn't the only one that you've hurt. You and your church have done a lot of things to offend a lot of people. Your concern shouldn't be for Jim's bitterness or unforgiveness but for your own need to repent.

I'll say the same thing for the Austins. You people have a lot of repenting to do to that family and it's real obvious that you haven't repented. You don't need to worry about whether the Austins have forgiven you. That's not your problem. Your problem is that you need to repent.

A presbyterian church that shuns. And you shunned them even though they'd never been excommunicated? That's incredible! What a thing to be know for. I've heard of "Those shunning Jehovah's Witnesses" but this is the first time I've heard of "Those shunning Presbyterians." Even after your pastor admitted he sinned against the Austins, you Saint Peter's people are still attacking them? Don't you have any shame at all?

You Saint Peter people have a big problem with bitterness but your problem isn't just your bitterness. Your problem is your pride. May God deliver you.
Posted by prairiemuffinmom | 1/04/2006 11:26 AM


It sounds to me like you're a long-tongued Jezebel that is guilty of all the things you are condemning us for - gossip, drinking, and bitterness. So you might ought to look at yourself before pointing fingers.

And yes, I would like to know who these cowards are because I would like to speak to them face to face, or by phone. That's an impossibility since they are too afraid to entertain an idea. I guess there's good reason for them to be afraid considering what they have said.
Posted by Jeff Forrester | 1/04/2006 12:23 PM

"Prairiemuffinmom, It sounds to me like you're a long-tongued Jezebel"

Mr. Forrester,

Before posting my comments I spoke with my husband about these things and obtained his permission to post. A "long-tongued Jezebel" wouldn't do that.

He's in full agreement with what I posted. So I guess next you're going to accuse my husband of being an Ahab, since you've already accused me of being a Jezebel?

We've heard that you Saint Peter's men have a low view of women. With your hateful comments here you've done an excellent job of demonstrating that for the whole world to see.

Tell me, Mr. Forrester, is this how your pastor RC Sproul Jr. teaches the men of his church to speak of women? Are all women who disagree with your drinking and shunning practices "long-tongued Jezebels?"

My husband is not at all pleased with you, Mr. Forrester. Lucky for you we don't live close by or I think it likely he'd pay you a visit and teach you some manners about how to speak to other men's wives.
Posted by prairiemuffinmom | 1/04/2006 7:37 PM


You are correct that if your husband contributed to your comments then he is an allegorical Ahab.

We are taught to treat women with the respect they deserve. Firstly, I don't know if you're a woman. Secondly, don't engage in heated conversation if you don't want to get burned. Thirdly, don't condemn others if you don't want it returned to you. Fourthly, if your husband is a man at all, he would be posting himself and not allowing you to post. There wouldn't be any problems with you not being treated like a lady if you would act like one and allow your head to do things a head does instead of poking your nose in and then claiming injustice when it gets bitten.

I would love to meet your husband face to face, but he is probably a coward like the others and is afraid to give his name. A phone conversation would even be fine with me.
Posted by Jeff Forrester | 1/05/2006 9:27 AM

Something I didn't mention before is we also witnessed a group of men at a Saint Peter's church function passing around a large whiskey bottle. This was going on in a public place, out of doors. RC Sproul Jr and your other pastors were right there. They saw it happening. It wasn't being done secretly and they weren't trying to hide it. They even seemed proud of themselves.

We spoke with our Saint Peter's friends about it and they told us it happens all the time. When we later started hearing about Saint Peter's beer keg parties and children being served alcohol we called our friends and they said that was not uncommon. Our friends told us that at first it really bothered them, but they got used to it. I asked them if joining Saint Peter's has desensitized their Christian convictions. They say it doesn't bother them anymore, which seems really strange to us because there was a time when they would have been really offended by whiskey bottles being passed around at a church function.

We can't understand how your pastors support that kind of behavior. But it's their church and it's your church. If that's what you all want so be it. We just think you should openly say what your church is all about. Put it on your church web site. Let people know before they go all the way out there like we did. "We're a drinking smoking church. And when we say drink we mean beer kegs and whiskey bottles. If that offends you then don't come." That would at least be honest.

Better yet stop doing it. Grow up. Act like Christians. Start being a witness for Jesus instead of just gratifying your own flesh.

What do non-Christians think of you when they pass by your "church" parties and see men passing around whiskey bottles and flasks and spitting tobacco juice and drinking out of beer kegs? Do you think that's a good testimony for Jesus? What do other Christians think of it? I'll tell you what we think. That's NOT moderation. There's more to moderation than just not getting falling down drunk.

If you want to drink do it in the privacy of your own homes. Have the common decency to not be having keg parties and passing around whiskey bottles for the whole world to see at your church functions.
Posted by prairiemuffinmom | 1/05/2006 10:06 AM

Mr. Forrester,

After your post yesterday we were hopeful that we wouldn't be hearing from you again. Your comments are provocative, and with your new post you are provoking a lot more than just a verbal fight. If you saw my husband you'd think twice before calling him a coward.

We checked with our friends. We didn't say anything about this blog, but we did ask them about Jeff Forrester. Your reputation procedes you Mr. Forrester. According to our friends your one of those hard drinking whiskey bottle men.

Now things are becoming clear and now we understand why your so angry and hostile when anyone says that Saint Peter's church has a drinking problem. Now we don't know if what you said about me and my husband was just the liquor talking, or if that's the way your pastor trained you to talk to women that say things you don't like.

We're sorry, Mr. Forrester, for any unkind comments we made against you. We should have assumed you had a drinking problem and shown you more compassion. Our prayers will be with you and with your family.

We also asked our friends about Matt Clement. They know some things about him too. They're almost positive that he's not 21, but they've seen him drinking booze heavily as church functions. The legal drinking age in Virginia is 21

This is all so tragic. Saint Peter's church has a lot of repenting to do and it all starts with RC Sproul Jr.
Posted by prairiemuffinmom | 1/05/2006 11:36 AM

Someone told me that the pseudonym "prairiemuffinmom" was being used in the comments here. Because of that and because my blog is linked in the sidebar, I want to say for the record that I am not that person. I have never left an anonymous comment on the internet *ever*, and I hope to have the intestinal fortitude to never make an excuse to do so. In the meantime, I will not be commenting on this issue as I am not personally involved in the events which occurred. If anyone is interested in Bible verses rather than opinions, here's one for you:

"The first one to plead his cause seems right, until his neighbor comes and examines him." (Proverbs 18:17)

And that's *all* I have to say.

Carmon Friedrich
Posted by Carmon Friedrich | 1/07/2006 9:02 AM 



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